E110: Burnout, Bottlenecks & Breaking Free with Charlotte Wibberley

Ever feel like your business looks successful on the outside…but behind the scenes, it’s chaos?

In this episode of Simple Business Dream Life, Emma is joined by founder dependency and repeat revenue strategist Charlotte Wibberley to unpack the “messy middle” of business...the stage where things are working, but they’re no longer working for you.

They dive into why more revenue doesn’t always equal more freedom, how burnout can creep up without warning, and what it really takes to build a sustainable, scalable business that supports your life, not consumes it.

If you’ve ever thought “it’s easier if I just do it myself'...this one’s for you.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

•  Why success can still feel overwhelming (and what’s really going on) 
•  The hidden danger of founder dependency and how it limits growth 
•  How burnout actually shows up (it’s not always what you think) 
•  Why systems aren’t just “tech” (and what they really mean for your business) 
•  The truth about recurring revenue and sustainable scaling 
•  Why “cookie-cutter” strategies don’t work and what to do instead 
•  How to build a business aligned with your values, energy, and life

Charlotte Wibberley is a strategic marketing partner and business growth expert who helps coaches, course creators and founders scale without the stress. Known for blending sharp data insight with calm, human strategy, she builds simple, repeatable systems that generate consistent revenue without constant launches. After 13+ years in the industry and experiencing burnout firsthand, she now champions sustainable success over hustle. Charlotte works closely with her clients to simplify their offers, strengthen their messaging and create businesses that run smoothly, profitably and without depending on their every move.

www.instagram.com/charlottewibberleystrategist

Want to connect? Find me here:

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Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-hine

Website:  https://www.emmahine.co.uk

You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaHineStrategy

Transcript

Hello and welcome to today's episode of Simple Business Dream Life. Today I'm joined by Charlotte Wibbley, who is like me, super passionate about helping business owners to build a business that actually supports their life. Now we've been connected for quite a while, so I am super, super excited for today's conversation because I know how amazing and fabulous Charlotte is. So I just know that this episode is going to be packed full of the juicy stuff. Hello, Charlotte. How are you? 

Hello. Thank you so much, Emma. Thank you for those kind words. I'm good. Thank you. Yeah, I'm good. It's springtime. Feeling good. Feeling like I'm a summer babe, so I feel like we're on the way. 

Yeah. Me too. Blue sky. I mean, the fact that it's probably freezing cold out there doesn't make a difference if there's blue sky. 

To be honest, I'm happy as long as I can hang my washing on the line. 

Do you know I'm a bit of a stranger on there. I don't like washing that's been hung on the line. 

My goodness. 

I know. Everybody says I'm very strange that way, but I much prefer it to be dried unnaturally. 

Dried unnaturally. Well, do you know what? Each to their own, I'm all about, you know, you do you, I'll do me. But yeah, for me at this time of year, the most exciting thing, and maybe this says something about my life, is that I get to hang my washing on the line. 

That makes me happy. It's fine, isn't it? I actually do like doing it in Spain. I don't mind doing it in Spain. It feels better there. But here, I don't know. I'm a strange one. 

Everything's better in Spain, I would imagine. 

That is true. That is true. Anyway, hello everybody. Okay, Charlotte, I'm not going to introduce you. I always allow my lovely guests to do that because you're going to do a much, much better job of it. So I'm going to hand straight over for you to just tell us who you are. 

Thank you. Hello, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in. So I am Charlotte. I am a founder dependency and repeat revenue strategist, which I still think sounds really wordy, but basically what it means is that I help online business owners to grow their businesses in a really predictable, sustainable, scalable way, and doing it without losing their sanity as well. And that has really come from my last 14 years in online business and going through three periods, one really recently of severe burnout and having to step away from the business. So I've always been in that sort of supportive space of helping people to grow sustainably and, you know, to create predictable revenue. But then adding in that whole like, you guys don't have to sell your soul to do that is like the piece that's kind of slotted in after my recent experiences. So yeah, I love working with people to try and kind of remove them from being the bottleneck in their business, but to make sure that their businesses are actually profitable at the same time as well. 

Yeah, which is really important, isn't it? I think there's so many people that are focused on... the top end, the amount of money that's coming in at the top and thinking if it keeps coming in at the top, then it's going to be, beautiful and dandy. And I can sit here and say hand on heart that I know that is not always the case because I have built the business with the massive revenue coming in at the top. And yes, it was profitable, but it wasn't fun. It wasn't enjoyable. So it's important to have all of that stuff sorted, isn't it? So what, When somebody came along to you and said, my business is a mess, I need to sort it out. Have you got a specific area that you focus on that you help people with? 

I tend to look at it holistically. So I started my journey in the online world as a virtual assistant. So I was a project manager and PA in London. And then when I had my first child, who's now 13, which blows my little mind, I moved into, as so many of us do, into something more flexible because I just didn't want to travel into London and be aware. different, my gorgeous baby boy. So I kind of started from a tech support, helping other businesses grow point of view. So my whole business journey has always been in that, how can we make this person's business better and get stuff done in a better way? So I hate the fact that lots of people refer to me as like automations, data, technical savvy, but I am, I can't ignore it. It's part of who I am, it's part of my journey. So yeah, I get clients that come to me that are like, usually I've had some success and things are working and maybe even things look really good from the outside, but inside I'm dying. I'm, you know, forgetting the reasons that I got into business. I am, you know, shouting at my kids when they come in because I'm too busy and, you know, I haven't got time to, spend time with them and also get all the stuff that I need done for my business or I'm just overwhelmed with the fact that I'm a dog trainer and I'm suddenly finding myself updating websites and having to do like loads of stuff on socials. There must be a better way to kind of structure my offers, my marketing and my whole business. That means that I don't have to show up in this way or even be the bottleneck in my business. So I think it's usually a point that people come to me when they've had a certain level of success, but that success just isn't feeling. the way that they need to feel anymore. The other thing that sometimes happens is that they've had success, but they've stalled. And the reason that they've stalled, they don't always see, is that they are, it's become completely dependent on them. And therefore, you know, it can't actually physically grow anymore because they are the person that's holding it back. And what they need to do is look at their offers, look at their marketing, look at the way that they're attracting their clients to try and shimmy it around a little bit so that they can still do the stuff that they love, but they're not doing everything and holding everything in their head. I see that so much. 

Yeah, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? As a business owner, there's so much that we have to suddenly take on. You know, we might be an expert at one specific thing. You spoke about a dog trainer, so we might be absolutely amazing at training dogs, but actually when you become a business owner, when you first start out on your own, which is how most business owners start out, you don't realise that you've got to be a salesperson, you've got to to be a marketer, you've got to be a tech person, you've got to be, you've got to be everything, haven't you? You've got to wear all of these hats and we do it as best we can, don't we? You know what I mean? We get the string, we get the sellotape and we make everything work as best we can. And it really does work for so long, doesn't it? really does keep us going for so long. But then there's a point where It's not strong enough, it's not sturdy enough. And if we want to build on it, we've just got something really rocky at the bottom, haven't we? And I think that's when it becomes, I talk about it being the quiet problem, because then you've got this, you spoke about people get to a point where they're actually doing okay. You know, they've got offers, they're making sales, they're doing all of these things. So why can't they just do more of that stuff and get more growth? And that's because they can't do, they can't build on something that's rocky. 

Yeah, absolutely. So you say about that, quiet problem is for me, I always talk about the messy middle. And it is that thing where sometimes it's that people feel like they've had accidental success. You know, they might have started out and put something, as you say, like sellotapes it all together. It's all kind of like, oh, it's ready to go. And suddenly it's like, it's flown and they've had all this success, but actually the foundations of what they're doing in their business haven't actually been set. So as boring as it is, and some of my clients literally glaze over when I talk about it, but thinking about tracking the data, looking at their systems, making sure that they have their processes in place, looking at how they're like ascension models put together. So it all kind of makes sense, making sure it's really simple. They haven't even thought about that because they're literally going from idea to idea to idea. So I tend to step in and go like, let's just strip it back and go, what is it that you want to do in business? How do you want to help people? How do you help people? And how can we make sure that your entire business model actually fits that? So it touches on like offer. I love shimmying up people's offers, but also looking at, yeah, how we then position them, get them really visible and try and take them out of the mix as well. So many of us, I think, and I'm guilty of this as well. I'm not sitting on, you know, in my ivory tower. We hold so much of our businesses in our heads that, sometimes I was talking with one of my clients yesterday and she was like, I just do it because it seems so much easier for me to get on and do something than to hire somebody else and tell them how to do it. I was like, okie dokie, this is the problem. Absolutely. 

And I'm smiling. I can, my cheeks hurt because I was smiling because I have so been there. I have so been in that position where I think, you know what, it's just easier to do it myself. I can do it quickly. I know what I'm doing. I'll just get it done. Which again is fine until it's not. And there's always a point when it becomes until it's not, isn't there? You know, that could be you becoming unwell. What happens then? 

Yeah, exactly. Or just that whole point of there being this ceiling and capacity, like we're only human. And for lots of us, we have other things outside of our work. So it could be kids, it could be parents, it could be hobbies, it could be, you know, being a carer, whatever it is. We have other stuff outside of our work that pulls on our time as well. So it's not like we have this like never ending pool of time and energy and capacity that we can give to our businesses and we have to be smart with how we spend. that. And I think, getting people to be really clever and intentional with how they spend that time is part of what I do as well. So helping them to think about, yeah, like, is this something you really should be doing? Or is there a system we can put in for that that's going to change things? Or even that offer that you do and you spend ages marketing and launching, is it profitable? Does it bring you money? Do you love it? Maybe not. Okay, get rid. It's your business. You can do what you want. 

Exactly. And for business owners, that's actually quite a scary conversation, isn't it? When we sit there and say to them, actually, let's scrap that, because they're going to be sitting there thinking, but actually, it's making me some money, because they're thinking about that it's making them 1000 pounds a month, 2000, whatever it is, they're seeing the figure that sits on top of that, not all of the stuff that's underneath. And that's the beauty of somebody like you or me or whoever coming in and looking at somebody else's business from a completely different perspective from a completely different angle, isn't it? And yeah, do you find that you when you say things like that to clients that they just want to go, no, I can't stop this offer. It's making me money. 

I tend to get like one of two things, which is either like somebody goes, oh, thank God you said that. I've been waiting for the permission to get rid of it, but because it's been bringing in some money, I've not wanted to, there's not been an excuse to. Or I get the people that, yeah, are more resistant that are going, But it is bringing in some money. And I'm like, yeah, but it's kind of killing you at the same time, isn't it? And they're like, yes, So I think it's like one of, it tends to fall in one of two camps. But I think one of the things I've certainly learned over my business journey, and I know you've been in business a lot longer than me, is that, you know, we can pivot and we can change. Just because something works in the moment doesn't mean that it's set in stone and we have to keep it. If it's not serving us, if it's not serving our clients, or even if it is still serving our clients, but it's not serving us, we can get real. We can mould it to a way that's going to serve everybody, but equally make sure that we're not burning out at the same time. 

Yeah, and that's really important, isn't it? has to serve you as well. It's not just about serving your clients and your customers, your suppliers, whoever it is. It's about you as well, isn't it? And making sure that what you were doing is sustainable for you, not just sustainable financially, but sustainable for you as well. I mean, we joked before we came on this call because we both had unsettled nights. And we're both getting through today on caffeine in one form and another. And that's fine, isn't it, for a day? Because we know hopefully tonight we will get a good night's sleep and we'll wake up tomorrow feeling much more refreshed. You can't do that forever, can you? Can't do that day after day after day. And I know we've both tried that at various points in a business to just keep doing it all, Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? Because you don't always see it happening. 

I think, and this is something I've talked about a lot over the last year because I think people just don't see it coming either. So like I had, I've had, I'm still going through my biggest period of burnout that I've had, like which started in October 2024 and led to me being completely incapacitated and taking six months out of my business last year because I couldn't work, I was too ill. But I hadn't really, I hadn't really seen it coming. I probably had seen it coming. I just didn't know how to recognize the signals because it didn't look like classic burnout to me. It wasn't like, oh, you're feeling tired or you don't want to get out of bed. Like I was overworking. I was overcompensating. I was throwing myself into everything. And then, you know, the danger of that was that at one point, my body just went, nah, that's that you're done. That's it, Charlotte, you can't do anymore. So it took me, you know, if I wasn't going to look after myself, it took me out of the game. And I think this is what I talk a lot about with my clients, not to scare them, but just to share my story, because I think my version of burnout looks different to how I suppose a lot of people talk about classic burnout. And I didn't know that that's what it was. So I've only figured out that's what it was going through every single medical test you can possibly have. And I've had a lot and figuring out that there's nothing physically wrong with me. 

Yeah, which is a good realisation. We don't want anything to be physically wrong with you. However, we don't want to get ourselves to the point where we're having to go through that to, you know, on the other side. But as you say, it just sort of creeps up on you sometimes. And I think I can only speak from my own personal experience. And I think, you know, we ignore the signs often, don't we? know that there's something there. We know that there's something isn't quite right. And how it affected me was completely different to how it affected you. But the I thought was the same. I was incapable of doing what I was supposed to be doing every day. I was still doing it, but I shouldn't have been doing it. And then you reach a point where you think, I'm not doing that again. That's not happening again. And I think that's when we really start to look at how we can do things differently, but still get the same, or actually, I'm going to argue, a better result. 

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, it's for so long. we've been told a way to run business or a way to do business. And, certainly I've been part of things where the advice I've been given by various different people has been like, you need to be obsessed. If you want good results on your business, you need to be obsessed with your business. And, you know, as somebody that has ADHD and struggles anyway to sort of really sit down and get stuff done, I thought there was something wrong with me because I couldn't be obsessed with my business. I love what I do, don't get me wrong. But I also love being with my kids and hanging washing on the line, as I say, and doing things like that, other stuff for me. So I thought that, you know, well, what's wrong with me? Because I don't want to be in these constant launch cycles and be talking about my business every hour of every day and doing stuff in the evenings. But actually, the realization came that that's right for some people and no shade on the people that want to do that, but equally it's not right for everybody. And I think finding our own way of how we want to run our businesses and the way we want to present our offers and the way we want to show up for our audiences, putting our own boundaries in place is just really, really important. And like, certainly I've learned to try and get rid of the noise. and listen to what works for me. I found that quite hard, but that's really worked over the last 18 months. 

Yeah, absolutely that. And you said something there that the result was you start to go inwards and you start to say, what's wrong with me? And I think that's something that we see a lot, isn't it? People automatically assume that it is, it's us. It's not working, therefore it must be me because it's working for them. And I've seen it doing them, we're working for it. They're claiming it's working, which is another thing that we see, isn't it? We straight away start to look inwards, but I'm a big believer that there is a different strategy for everybody. you've got to know what it is you want first. You've got to have that clarity piece first. Once you've got that, there's always a way to build it, isn't there? There's always a way to make it work for you and to give you the results that you want to get financially as well as personally, life, client results, et cetera, as well. 

Yeah. I did a talk, I remember back in, my God, 2023 now on Danny Wallace's stage all about, I think I called it Evergreen for Dummies, which we thought was really clever. Like as in, you know, you can buy like that, like Engineering for Dummies or Marketing for Dummies or whatever it is, those books, we came up with something to do with that. But basically it was all around how live launching can really be, can be great, but equally can be a trigger for burnout and how having a hybrid live launch and Evergreen ecosystem is the way forward. And that was, I remember that being really well received and people coming up to me afterwards and saying, look, I've never really thought about it that way. And I've never really thought that I could do both. I've always thought that, you know, you get the people that say you have to live launch to get the visibility. You get the people that say your business should be built in an evergreen way. But actually having the both in there, I think is the way to do it. to protect your energy and to make sure that you get those big bursts of energy, but also and eyes on your business, but equally that you have that continuation of income. Like the last 18 months, if I didn't have recurring income in my business, I don't know what would have happened. It would have been a scary place, that's for sure. But yeah, there's definitely not a one-size-fits-all when it comes to how you should do anything in business. 

Absolutely not. And that doesn't mean any of them are wrong. It doesn't mean any of them are wrong. And if you've tried something and it's not worked, it doesn't mean that method doesn't work. It just means it's not the right method for you. And I'm a big believer in that if it doesn't sit with you, it's not aligned with you, then it's not going to work for you because something within you is going to stop you doing what it is you need to do. So if you're not a high energy person, then big, massive launches are going to absolutely drain you. Now, that doesn't mean you can't do them, but you've got to make sure that you've built your support, your system, and all of the stuff that sits around it to protect your own energy. Otherwise you'll never get the results because you'll just give up, you'll burn out or whatever will happen. 

Yeah. And I still find that I get a lot of people that will come to me and say, I've been given this blueprint of how I should build out my launch. want to launch a course or whatever. So this is how I want to do it. And I look at it and go, right, you're really introverted. You have this really busy life. Your offer is at this point. this price point. Is this the right approach for you? Because actually, from my experience, I don't think it is. I think we should go for something different. And I think there's still a lot of like templated cookie cutter stuff being thrown around or ways that we should do that. But I totally agree with you, Amar. I think trial and error, try something. And if it doesn't work or it drains you or yeah, you could get the results, but it could just not feel good, then I think it's us having giving ourselves the permission to say that doesn't work for me and that's okay. I can do it my way. 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely you can. And I think for me, I've been doing a lot of work recently on my values. I mean, I've been out of corporate since 2008. So it's a long time since I've been through the corporate values piece. And I've always struggled. My old business, we didn't have values. We didn't have anything within that business. It just It just did its thing. You know what I mean? It was one of those. It was just built. The strategy wasn't there. It was just, let's see what we can do to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. That was it. That was the strategy. But when I came into this online world and it was like, okay, I'm not doing that again. This time I need to go back to my corporate role, which was a strategic role. Interesting being as I ignored it all in my own business, but that's how we roll, isn't it? I knew that I needed to do some of the foundational stuff. And the one bit I could never pin down was what my values are. I can never get to the point where I could get. But everything I did, I did from certain things like principles. You've probably seen my post that's gone out this week. And I realised that actually it's my principles, which actually are values just with my own version of naming it there, are the thing that drive everything I'm actually doing in my business, whether that's how I show up, whether it's the offers that I do, whether it's how I work with clients, whether it's, you know, what I do in terms of, you know, how I manage my business and all of that type of stuff. It actually It was all underpinned by those principles, which is commonly known in this world as values. And yeah, that was an interesting conversation. I don't know why I just told you that was me going off at a tangent, but there you go. 

I love it. I love it because you're right. And it's like when we start businesses, so I don't know with me, I kind of, so at the time I think I enrolled with a VA trainer to tell you how the hell to set up a business because nobody tells you that stuff at school. Well, it certainly didn't back when I was at school. So learning on the fly as to how to do all the things I needed to do and market and everything else. And setting my values or anything, I never had, I wouldn't have had even thought about that. But I think they've kind of arrived on me as time's gone by. And even though it's been like 14 years, I think it's, I'm only really now really sure what my values or ethics or whatever it is in business are. And that's come from the lived experiences that I've had over the last 14 years. So like I know that alignment is really, really important to me. I think anything that's not aligned with how I feel, I've learned the hard way that I have to say no to. Fun always, what's the point? We could go and get a high paid job in the city or whatever or anything, but what's the point? If we don't enjoy what we do, there's just no point in doing it. And I think also I would I was the weirdo on the block, so I've always been the kind of person that's maybe not fit into, kind of square peg round hole. And so embracing the fact that I am different and that I do things differently and I'm awkward in social environments. and that I have weird things that I like to do, that's okay. And that's taken me 43 years to figure out that I'm okay with that as well. But it's part of my values now is that we're all bloody different and thank God. 

Absolutely. 100% how boring would this world be if we were all the same, isn't it? If we're all the same. But something I want to pick up on there that you said, and I think the thing with values is I think it's the fact that we actually choose to own them and recognise them and accept them. I think that's the big thing, isn't it? You know, like you're saying, accepting that you do things differently than other people. And that's okay. That's absolutely okay. But I think often we're so sort of like conditioned, aren't we, to behave in a certain way, to show up in a certain way, to office set up a certain way, to have systems running a certain way, that I think it's quite difficult sometimes for us to accept that actually I want to be a bit of a rebel and I want to do something slightly different and know that is then going to be okay. 

Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, I love that, being a rebel. And I don't mean from like a rebel just for rebel's sake, but equally, yeah, challenging the status quo. And I think, you know, Again, it's only been over the last sort of couple of years through this, I guess, like metamorphosis from me running like a blue **** fly before burnout to me now going my nervous system and me being okay is the most important thing I can look after because otherwise I can't be a mum, I can't be a wife, I can't be a friend or a business owner that can help my clients. But you know, so rebelling against some of the stuff that I've seen that It just doesn't make sense to me. So I think that's, I've been braver out coming out of the back of that. Oh, there's always a lesson in everything, isn't there? Might not be easy to learn. 

No, absolutely, but there always is. I think it's whether we choose to listen to that lesson, isn't it, and do something about it. Something else that you mentioned a little bit earlier, I think I'd like to explore that a little bit, if that's okay, is you spoke about having systems in place. Now, When people mention systems, they're going to go straight to you're talking tech here. Now, I don't think of systems just as tech, and I'm sure you don't either. So talk to us a little bit about systems. 

So yeah, you're right. Systems, people suddenly go, okay, if I ever ask people about their systems, they're like, yeah, immediately like, well, I'm with GoHighLevel or I'm like, well, okay, fine, but what about the wider part of your ecosystem? So I tend to talk about an ecosystem. So I'm talking about I guess the entire look and framework of your business. So I'm talking about your client journey. I'm talking about your audience and how you're speaking to them, your visibility tactics. I'm talking about your, I suppose, like your brand voice and your language, how you're addressing people, how you show up for people. I'm talking about your customer journey past when they've when they've bought from you, so how you treat your customers afterwards. So I tend to talk about your ecosystem in terms of all the facets that take someone from not even knowing you exist right through to being hopefully a repeat buyer or at least a happy client at the time that you're working with them. And I've got kind of my own methodology that looks at all those different sort of facets of that ecosystem. And that is sometimes That's sometimes about live launching. Sometimes that's about putting in new automations and evergreen. I'm a big fan of personal touch. So I think adding the human into this, into the system is really, really important. So I'm always talking to my clients about that. But you know, there's got to be a system. There has to be a set of processes or a way that you do things. And your technical systems can then be the pieces that are like your, I suppose, your scaffolding that hold it together and help your ecosystem to run smoothly, hopefully, depending on which system you're with. 

That's a whole different conversation. Yeah. And I think this is why people run a mile from a lot of this stuff, isn't it? And keep putting some of this stuff off. Because as you said at the beginning, it doesn't sound sexy. It doesn't sound fun. It sounds like the sort of stuff that's going to send your brain into explosion mode. But actually, it is the stuff that once it's done, is going to save you so much time, make you so much money, save you money and all of those things. But it is the thing frustratingly that people do tend to ignore. 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, because people jump system to tech. And then when I say data, like literally, as I say, quite often people like glaze over because they're just not interested. Whereas I find data quite sexy, which is, you know, that's just me. Another one of my weird things. then, they tend to sort of put it to the bottom of their list. It's like that thing that we always think, like for me, it's always, it's always doing my social media. I'm always, I know I have to do it, but I'd rather do anything else. We all have those things that we put at the bottom of our to-do list. But like, this is the framework of your business. And so when people come to me and are like, I want to put out this new thing. I'm like, okay, well, what are the bones look like? What does your business framework look like? What does the business model look like? And where does this fit in there? Because if it's some random thing that actually doesn't make sense with your audience or how you choose to deliver and all that sort of stuff, or is it, you know, even though there's not going to be any demand for it, there's no point in putting it out there. So I tend to like look at business model, audience, and then like, thinking about the tactics and how they're actually going to get that sales ecosystem that works across the seasons without them burning out after they've got all that stuff in place. 

That's it. And I think the interesting thing is, isn't it, everybody is going to come to you because they want inconsistent or increased sales. that I want to do this piece of work that sits underneath. But I absolutely get that. We've all got, as you say, we've all got our nemesis, haven't we've all got the things that we don't enjoy doing, but it is, I am going to be completely behind you and say this is the most important piece of work that you need to do in your business, making sure that you've got all of this foundational stuff set up. So let's talk about you a little bit more. What would you say was your, What's your biggest learning in business overall? Because I know you've been in the online world for a while. I don't know if you were in business or a job or what you were doing prior to that, but you've been in the online world. I'd say you're one of the OGs, aren't you? 

Of course. Yeah, I think I joined, we're both OGs, we can be OGs. I started my first business in 2013. So like I say, I've been in corporate since, you know, I'd left left school. So I was working as a PA and project manager in the city, blue chip company, heavily into corporate self-employment was not a thing I was ever going to do because it looked stressful. And I was very happy with my paycheck, thank you very much. And then when I had Alex, I suddenly was like, no, I can't go back to working full-time. My job wasn't available part-time, so I needed to come up with another job. So I set up my first business, which was a virtual assistant business. So And it's kind of just grown from there. So I've said yes to a lot of things. So as it's gone along and, I started off targeting the insurance industry because that's what I knew, that's where I came from. Got clients, grew, very quickly grew a team. And, you know, then it's kind of I've said yes to different things that have come along. Like I started an association to set standards of virtual assistants and then sold that business. So there's been lots of evolution along the way that's built to my skills and some of the studying that I've done because I have ADHD, so I like to do far too much all the time. So I think one of the things, I think the biggest thing that I've learned over those 14 years, just to actually go back to your point, is to listen to my gut about stuff. I feel like I've chased for probably 11 years of those 14 years, the advice of other people, of other gurus and other people that I feel are further along in their business journey. But actually, I've often had the answers to what I need inside of myself, which sounds a bit tweaky. But I've stopped following that rhetoric by word for word and those blueprints and actually gone Who the hell am I? What do I need? What works for me? And what do I want to do? And started that rebellion. And that's only been the last couple of years. And this whole like burnout period, phoenix rising from the ashes, because it genuinely was literally so poorly. This has just taught me that I've got, I know what to do and I might not be able to do all of it myself. That's not saying that I can, because I do have a team and of course I rely on other people for advice and support, but I've stopped listening to everybody else all the time, just telling me what my business should look like and what it, you know, what it needs to be when actually it doesn't feel aligned. 

Yeah, and that is absolute gold dust, isn't it? Trusting yourself, trusting your own gut, trusting your own beliefs, trusting your own ability to do what it is you want to do as well in your own way. But I think that's a trap most of us fall into, isn't it, at some point, too, because somebody's further along in their journey, your assumption is that they are better. at it than you are, whereas quite often it's not that, they're just further on. So they've got a bigger audience, so they're heard and seen more and all of that type of stuff that sits in there. But we often don't believe that, do we, until we've heard somebody else tell us. 

Yeah, and you know, we've all got our lived experiences and quite often people So they have their own lived experiences. So they have their own versions of what's made them successful. And nobody's taking that away from them. But equally, just because that's worked for them doesn't mean it's going to work for me or you or somebody else. And I think, you know, I'm really careful in the training courses and teaching that I give to my clients that I'm never like, this is how you should do it. I'm always like, well, from my experience, this is how I believe is going to be the best way to do it, but tell me what you think about that. You know, we discuss it and we try it and we also then are very happy to rip up the rulebook if it's not working because Nothing's guaranteed. Everything we do in business is trial and error. We put it out, we look at the data, sorry, data reverse people, we see how it's performed and we go again, we improve or we ditch it and we do something different. Absolutely. 

Those 3 words that you said are really powerful from my experience. And I think that's something that we need to hear more of, isn't it? Because there's nothing Let's be honest, we're business owners. There's nothing new out there. It's just everybody has put their own version of what that looks like into a business based on their experience, their knowledge, what they have been through, what they have done. And all of these things work. They just, as you say, work differently for different people. So I love that. I absolutely love that you've done that and you've gone back to you and trusting yourself and doing it your way. Absolutely. That's the way that it should be, isn't it? So What would you say would be your sort of like top tip for our listeners? I always like to ask people this towards the end. 

Top tip? Obviously, I've got to say, get your foundations in place. If you're sitting there and you are either new to business and thinking, I don't need to think about this stuff yet till I'm successful. You do. The earlier that you get your foundations in place, the better. If you're sitting there feeling successful but stuck and like you can't grow again, it's not too late. You can still go back and look at your business and re-plan out, you know, diagnose where the problems are and think about what you need to do from a strategic point of view to put those foundations in place. I think I think my biggest tip, would be your business is you and you are your business. I remember right at the beginning, I don't know if you were the same member, but when I came out of corporate, because corporate is so corporate, putting together a website and it was so, like I had a city landscape at the back, I remember it, was really pink. And it was, I was trying to be really corporate. And I'm not really corporate is the ironic thing at all. I'm so anti-corporate. So I think being able to be a personal brand in your own right is really important. And I still get people that are really nervous or lack confidence in showing up as themselves. But I think finding a way that you can, even if you don't want to do live video and stuff, I'm not saying you suddenly have to be a wizard jumping on and doing standing on stage or doing live events all the time, but you have to be able to show who you are online because that is the stuff that is going to set you apart from the many, many, many people running businesses in this space. So I think getting really comfortable with who you are and being able to tell those stories online is going to be one of the most important things that you can do for your business. 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think more so now than ever, because there is a lot of people out here, isn't there? A lot of people in this world or in any business world. So we need to be seen and heard as us so people can get to know who we really are. So love that. Absolutely love that. So if people want to come and explore more of you, tell us a little bit about how they do that. 

Yep, so I've got a website that now does not have a lovely corporate city landscape. It's got pictures of me. So you can come and visit that, which is charlottewibberly.co.uk. Other than that, I'm usually on Instagram, so it's Charlotte Wibberly Strategist. So you can come and follow me on there. You will get tips and tricks about all the stuff I do. You will also get random dog videos. I posted one the other day of my dog going out for a walk and she's like a hunter-gatherer and she got a piece of bread in her mouth. She's a hilarious picture. So I can't guarantee it's all going to be business, but I tend to share most of my stuff on there. But yeah, when you go onto my Instagram profile, there's a load of freebies and bits and bobs that can get you started in this area and thinking about how you can build your business and bring in that repeat revenue without, yeah, selling your soul. 

Which is so important, so, important. And do you know what you say there about your dog pictures with the dog with his brand? That is you doing exactly what you just said was your top tip, isn't it? Letting people see the real you, the person behind the brand, the person behind the business. 

This is the **** I have to deal with on a daily basis. 

Exactly. And what? People really do want to see that. They do want to see that. We tell ourselves they don't, but they do. They want to know you've had for dinner. They want to know all of this stuff. But thank you so much, Charlotte. I'm going to share all of your links on the show notes anyway. So if people want to go straight into the show notes, you'll be able to grab Charlotte's links and go and give her a follow. But thank you so much for joining me. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. 

Yes, I have. Thank you so much, Emma. Really good to chat. 

My absolute pleasure. And everybody else, thank you for listening. We are going to see you next time. See you later. Bye. Bye.